|
Post by disillusioned on Jan 18, 2021 18:16:12 GMT
Jan 17, 2021 18:28:26 GMT -5 disillusioned said:I'm not sure that I buy your claim that the US has been more benign than any other historical power. To be honest, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to mean. I did say any other "dominant" power": major world power. I'm not comparing it to Luxembourg or Canada. By "more benign" I mean better, less bad. Jan 17, 2021 18:28:26 GMT -5 disillusioned said:It is also the case that American consumerism is only possible because of various human rights atrocities in other countries. The US is certainly not alone in exploiting developing nations in this way, but still. Explain what you mean by "American consumerism". Is there a Canadian version? If so, do you participate in it? Jan 17, 2021 18:28:26 GMT -5 disillusioned said:Moreover, due in no small part to the role that America has played over the past century, we now live in a world where many nations possess nuclear weapons. The potential for the world to literally be destroyed at any moment by a madman has never been higher. "Benign" seems a bit much. You don't think nuclear weapons would have been developed if the US hadn't developed them first? Are you kidding me?
Jan 17, 2021 18:28:26 GMT -5 disillusioned said:I'm also not sure exactly what you mean by "be careful what you wish for". I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, but it sounds a little like a threat. My statement was : "So by all means feel free to resent the United States and its role in the world, but be careful what you wish for. Australia has already started to incur China's wrath by daring to stand up to China."
My point was: if you get your wish of a less dominant USA, that is likely to mean a more dominant China, governed by the Chinese Communist Party. As you said yourself, "as the world moves on various other nations will undoubtedly seize power". Would you prefer a world with China dominant than tone with the US dominant?
Jan 17, 2021 18:28:26 GMT -5 disillusioned said:Point being, I don't see any particular reason to think that a world where the US is the dominant military power would necessarily be better than a world dominated by any other country. "Any other country". Seriously, you think a world where the current Chinese government was the dominant military power would be OK?
Ok, a few things here. 1) I'm still not sure what you mean by "more benign". Better/less bad for whom? For the world as a whole? Time will tell, I guess, but I think trying to quantify that sort of thing is a fool's errand. Historically speaking, I don't this can properly be done. 2) I think you understand very well what I mean by "American consumerism", but if not, here's a relvant, albeit somewhat old, article: www.scientificamerican.com/article/american-consumption-habits/Is there a Canadian version, and do I participate? Of course, but that's not the point here. We're talking specifically about the US, and how it is perceived by those outside it versus those inside it. You seem to think that I'm trying to hold Canada up as some sort of ideal nation. Well, I'm not. I've already stated explicitly that I don't particularly think Canada is better than other countries in general, except, perhaps, at hockey and curling. You asserted that the US has been relatively benign, and I gave a counterargument. "You do it too!" isn't really a convincing response. I never claimed Canada was benign, and I wouldn't. 3) Nuclear weapons would likely have been developed without US involvement. But that doesn't change the fact that the US did in fact play a crucial role. Then they also got into a little arms race with the USSR which directly contributed to the development of many, many, many more nuclear weapons than might otherwise have been developed. I would not call that "benign". Saying "someone else would have done it if we hadn't" does nothing to absolve anyone of responsibility for what they actually did. 4) No, I personally currently would not prefer a world with China as the dominant power to one with the US as the dominant power. I haven't seen anyone wishing for that here. But it will probably happen eventually. If not China, someone else, and whoever it is, I don't necessarily think it will end up being any worse or better overall. 5) By "any other country" I was trying to make the general point. I was specifically not referring to any specific country, like China. But whether it would be "OK" with me for China to be the dominant power is beside the point. It isn't "OK" with many people for the US to be the dominant power. So what? Here we are. It works out for some, and not for others. At the end of the day, I think a world dominated by a different country would likely look similar in this regard.
|
|
Wertbag
New Member
Posts: 14
Current Belief System: Atheist
Gender: Male
|
Post by Wertbag on Jan 18, 2021 18:53:05 GMT
Canada is better than other countries in general, except, perhaps, at hockey and curling. Is curling a mainstream popular event? It seems to be a sport that is considered a bit of a joke around the world. I looked up who the current champs were, and while Sweden is the current, they don't compare to Canada who have won the world champs 36 times. I've seen it at the Olympics, but it never interested me enough to watch a whole game.
|
|
|
Post by disillusioned on Jan 18, 2021 19:44:01 GMT
Canada is better than other countries in general, except, perhaps, at hockey and curling. Is curling a mainstream popular event? It seems to be a sport that is considered a bit of a joke around the world. I looked up who the current champs were, and while Sweden is the current, they don't compare to Canada who have won the world champs 36 times. I've seen it at the Olympics, but it never interested me enough to watch a whole game. Yeah, it's pretty popular here. It doesn't generate revenue in the same way that the major sports do, but there's a curling club in pretty much every town, and the major tournaments (provincials, nation championships, world championships, and the pro tour) all get good TV coverage.
|
|
|
Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 19, 2021 5:32:18 GMT
It seems pretty clear that the perceptions of the US often diverge from the experience of being here. At least somewhat. People probably think it's better in some ways and worse in other ways than it actually is.
Another funny thought is what the earth would look like to intelligent life forms that happened across our broadcasted and broadcasting signals going out into deep space?
Based on broadcasts, I'm sure it looks pretty fucked up. And probably dangerous or at the minimum, toxic.
|
|
|
Post by taba on Jan 19, 2021 11:39:54 GMT
disillusioned, I see how you feel about America. You don’t particularly like any country, including your own, but only America motivates you to condemn and criticize. There are things you’re not allowed to say in Canada anymore, but loudly criticizing the US will always get you applause. Still, we could have far worse neighbors than the perpetual Peanut Gallery to our north. All those celebrities have to have somewhere to talk about moving to when Republicans win elections.
|
|
|
Post by disillusioned on Jan 19, 2021 15:13:17 GMT
disillusioned , I see how you feel about America. You don’t particularly like any country, including your own, but only America motivates you to condemn and criticize. There are things you’re not allowed to say in Canada anymore, but loudly criticizing the US will always get you applause. Still, we could have far worse neighbors than the perpetual Peanut Gallery to our north. All those celebrities have to have somewhere to talk about moving to when Republicans win elections. Not exactly. I do not condemn the US, but I do criticize it. And in general, in my day to day conversations and interactions, I criticize many things, including various countries. It's just that in conversations which are specifically about perceptions of the US, I focus on the US. I'm not always successful, but I do try to stay on topic.
|
|
|
Post by logicalfallacy on Jan 20, 2021 2:19:47 GMT
Alright you US folk, can you please tell me what is up with Presidential Pardons? I thought the US was nation of rule of law and order, of democracy, Of responsibility and consequence. Yet apparently you can get pardoned by the president EVEN if you are guilty??? I mean this isn't like a case where there is the case for a pardon because of injustice, or false conviction etc is it? I understand it can be for truly guilty parties. Somebody is taking vicarious redemption too seriously! Also if the President can just pardon people why can't God? Different subject I know, but I am thought streaming atm. And for good measure on greatness, freedom etc etc www.maxim.org.nz/the_rule_of_law__democracy_and_economic_freedom/"Is New Zealand the freest nation in the world? Two international freedom rankings have been published recently, with New Zealand scoring at or near the top of both." Just in case somebody here wonders why LF might sing the bias praises of his home country - well because we are great! I wouldn't go so far as to claim greatest least hubris come upon us, but yeah, we're pretty good really.
|
|
|
Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 20, 2021 2:39:08 GMT
Alright you US folk, can you please tell me what is up with Presidential Pardons? I thought the US was nation of rule of law and order, of democracy, Of responsibility and consequence. Yet apparently you can get pardoned by the president EVEN if you are guilty??? I mean this isn't like a case where there is the case for a pardon because of injustice, or false conviction etc is it? I understand it can be for truly guilty parties. Somebody is taking vicarious redemption too seriously! Also if the President can just pardon people why can't God? Different subject I know, but I am thought streaming atm. And for good measure on greatness, freedom etc etc www.maxim.org.nz/the_rule_of_law__democracy_and_economic_freedom/"Is New Zealand the freest nation in the world? Two international freedom rankings have been published recently, with New Zealand scoring at or near the top of both." Just in case somebody here wonders why LF might sing the bias praises of his home country - well because we are great! I wouldn't go so far as to claim greatest least hubris come upon us, but yeah, we're pretty good really. I haven't paid very much attention to the pardons. I don't know the background on who's being pardoned. I heard he's going out with a bang and pardoning a bunch of people after declassifying a bunch of information.
|
|
|
Post by weezer on Jan 20, 2021 5:30:38 GMT
I have always thought the presidents ability to pardon was a bad idea. Maybe Trump's extreme abuse of the practice will bring some change.
The US is great in some ways, but is also very dumb in some ways. Yes, we are extremely powerful, but you know the saying, "power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts." I believe it. Eisenhower warned of a developing military industrial complex back in the 50s, and it has gone down that road. Billionaires make billions when we have war, and when we have riots, etc. They sell supplies to both sides. We generate wars through lies and scare tactics like the "Gulf of Tonkin" and "weapons of mass destruction". And Dick Cheney's friends at Haliburton got no bid contracts worth billions. Coincidence???
We have some of the best medical care in the world---if you can afford it. Our cost of care is double that in other countries, but we aren't the healthiest people in the world, and a huge number of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. I retired from working in the medical setting, and can tell you we have a terribly inefficient system, with corporations getting filthy rich off the backs of sick people. Doctors doing unneeded procedures, prescribing unneed medications, etc. And due to all the different insurance plans with their different requirements, 25% of our cost of care goes to administering all those plans. But the medical and insurance lobbies are VERY STRONG.
And look at our rankings compared to other countries in happiness, freedoms, peacefulness, and crime----especially murder. But, HEY! ALMOST EVERY TOM, DICK AND HARRY IS FREE TO HAVE AS MANY GUNS, OF ANY KIND, AND AS MUCH AMMUNITION AS THEY WANT, AND NOW CAN CARRY THEM ALMOST ANYWHERE. THAT'S THE KIND OF FREEDOM WE WANT!!
Forgive my sarcasm, but I believe we will be very sorry (perhaps very soon) that our second ammendment has been interpreted in such a manor to allow that much, and that kind of firepower in the hands of so many. And many of these people also believe they have God on their side.
In a nutshell, we have an oligarchy----not a democracy. If the USA was as interested in the wellbeing of it's people, as they are of it's bank accounts and power, we truly would be great. But the country isn't bad enough, yet, that we are considering leaving. But the letters to the editor, and to our congressmen, keep leaving my Samsung tablet on a regular basis.
|
|
|
Post by weezer on Jan 21, 2021 5:33:36 GMT
Well, I got my rant out last night. Focusing more on international perception, I think people outside often have a more objective viewpoint of us than we do of ourselves. Similar to individual people not seeing themselves as others see them.
|
|
mwc
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by mwc on Jan 21, 2021 14:52:31 GMT
Alright you US folk, can you please tell me what is up with Presidential Pardons? I thought the US was nation of rule of law and order, of democracy, Of responsibility and consequence. Yet apparently you can get pardoned by the president EVEN if you are guilty??? I mean this isn't like a case where there is the case for a pardon because of injustice, or false conviction etc is it? I understand it can be for truly guilty parties. Somebody is taking vicarious redemption too seriously! Also if the President can just pardon people why can't God? Different subject I know, but I am thought streaming atm. And for good measure on greatness, freedom etc etc www.maxim.org.nz/the_rule_of_law__democracy_and_economic_freedom/"Is New Zealand the freest nation in the world? Two international freedom rankings have been published recently, with New Zealand scoring at or near the top of both." Just in case somebody here wonders why LF might sing the bias praises of his home country - well because we are great! I wouldn't go so far as to claim greatest least hubris come upon us, but yeah, we're pretty good really. Well, the basic idea was something we took the idea from Britain. Many crimes simply resulted in a death sentence and so your only hope was a pardon from the king. Even though we fought a revolution to get away from the Brits we still kept many of their ways. One of those was this concept of the pardon. They also decided it should be a power held by as few people as possible and so it sat with the chief executive. In this case it only holds power on Federal cases. Anything on the state level is handled there so the Governor has a similar power in the various states. I'm less certain on this but I believe that on other cases, like at a county level, Judges or other similar officials, would hold this authority (or some form of it). This means you have to know that we have various jurisdictions and who holds the authority over said jurisdiction in order to grant a pardon or commutation. It's all a bit confusing. Just think of it sort of working from the most local authority (town/city) on up through county, to state and to Federal. If they disagree they tend to wind up suing one another.
|
|