Wertbag
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Post by Wertbag on Jan 14, 2021 20:33:53 GMT
One thing I have come across in the past is Americans who are fanatical about their belief that America is the greatest country in the world. Anyone who thinks differently is delusional and any data that disagrees is fake. Now I completely understand having pride in your country, but sometimes pride blinds people to alternative viewpoints. This obviously only applies to certain people, its not a stereotype. Some International views on America include: - Terrible healthcare coverage - The only country in the Western world not to look after all of its citizens. Hundreds of thousands of people bankrupted every year trying to cover huge medical bills. The highest cost of medical treatment in the world. Insurance companies taking billions in profit out of the industry and it is in their interest to reject as much as they can as they are profit focused not health outcome focused. - Terrible political system - Very bureaucratic heavy, very bi-partisan with two parties and a lot of hatred towards people that support the other side. - Terrible legal system - Large costs for businesses to carry lawsuit insurance because people can sue for almost everything. Because legal costs are put on the defendant, even when you win, you lose. The public defenders office is meant to give justice to those who can't afford lawyers, but is so underfunded that getting any support is pure luck. - Terrible military strategy - Trillions of dollars poured into the largest military the world has ever seen, imagine what good even a portion of that money could have done. America has become the world police, sticking its nose into other countries issues and forcing political change. America has ended up mired in wars that they have little interest in fighting, but have destabilised regions so they are now required to prop up fragile allies. 38 other countries have US military bases in them.
Some of these are based on facts but some of the international view is a bit exaggerated. So what do our American friends think? Was America the greatest thing ever and has slipped, or was it never the shining beacon of countries that some would have you believe?
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Post by disillusioned on Jan 14, 2021 22:25:40 GMT
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 15, 2021 2:45:22 GMT
I think we're in a "me" era. People dont want universal health care because it will raise their taxes and they wont be able to buy a boat or motorhome that will spend 350 days a year in storage.
People in America cry Socialism! Like it's Communism or Satanism. Medicare is perfectly ok, though. Having tax paid police, fire departments, national highway system, local street systems, military, most anything else paid by taxes is ok...and somehow not socialism.
We dont really want educated people or we'd just pay for their education. We do have a lot of problems including thinking we know more than other countries that are much older than us.
But, I've always had a shelter over my head, food to eat, been able to find work, can generally walk down the street without being kidnapped or murdered or robbed (that's on a city by city basis, of course). I can't compare it to living in other countries as I havent lived elsewhere.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 15, 2021 2:56:02 GMT
I've questioned that mantra many times. And it can be somewhat embarrassing when people go overboard with the bragging. I think it comes from our initial roots as a free, self-government nation. We grew powerful through the course of wars. We became a or the world superpower. Outlasted the Soviet Union. People are free to make their own way, chart their own courses. But I remember questioning how free we are now, today, in comparison to most other developed countries. Not being free to smoke a joint if you feel like it (years ago). Not free to drive without a seat belt if you don't feel like it (in some states). I just started thinking about how many ways we are not completely free and the government does impose itself too much on citizens. According the standards set below, we don't even rank at the top. link"The Index of Freedom in the World is an index of civil liberties published in late 2012 by Canada's Fraser Institute, Germany's Liberales Institut, and the U.S. Cato Institute.[1] The index is the predecessor of the Human Freedom Index, which has been published annually since 2015. The coauthors of both indexes are Ian Vásquez and Tanja Porčnik (née Štumberger). The index is based on measures of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual economic choice, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, violence and crimes, freedom of movement, and women's rights. Other components of the Freedom Index include human trafficking, sexual violence, female genital mutilation, and homicide.[2] The index rates countries on a scale from 10 (freest) to 0 (least free). In 2019, the freest countries/regions were New Zealand (8.88), Switzerland (8.82), and Hong Kong SAR, (8.81). Least free were Syria (3.79), Venezuela (3.80), and Yemen (4.30).[3] The components on which the index is based can be divided into economic freedoms and other personal freedoms. Highest ranking in economic freedoms were Hong Kong (8.91) and Singapore (8.71). Highest ranking in personal freedoms were Sweden (9.45) and the Netherlands (9.28).[3] In 2019, United States has dropped to rank 15 according to The Human Freedom Index. The Freedom Index does not measure democracy, but it does measure freedom of speech and media, press killings, political imprisonment, etc. According to the report, democracy may be the form of government that best protects freedom, but democracy may both increase and reduce freedom. Nevertheless, democracy strongly correlates with freedom (7.9), as measured by the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index and the Freedom Index.[3]"
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 15, 2021 3:14:00 GMT
I think we're in a "me" era. People dont want universal health care because it will raise their taxes and they wont be able to buy a boat or motorhome that will spend 350 days a year in storage. People in America cry Socialism! Like it's Communism or Satanism. Medicare is perfectly ok, though. Having tax paid police, fire departments, national highway system, local street systems, military, most anything else paid by taxes is ok...and somehow not socialism. We dont really want educated people or we'd just pay for their education. We do have a lot of problems including thinking we know more than other countries that are much older than us. But, I've always had a shelter over my head, food to eat, been able to find work, can generally walk down the street without being kidnapped or murdered or robbed (that's on a city by city basis, of course). I can't compare it to living in other countries as I havent lived elsewhere. Here's the real issue, we shouldn't have to pay more taxes in the first place. Did you see the stimulus? It was beyond ridiculous. What if we didn't spend any of it on any other country and stopped it from going to all of those special interest groups? And flat out nonsense? linkThe money that they have with the taxes right where they are needs to be managed a hell of lot of better than it's being managed, first of all. Then look at whether or not raising taxes has any warrant. They're mismanaging the living shit out of the money that they do have. Which can cause reservations about giving them much more of it to mismanage!!!
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Wertbag
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Post by Wertbag on Jan 15, 2021 9:17:59 GMT
"In 2019, the freest countries/regions were New Zealand (8.88)" Kiwi! Kiwi! Kiwi! Ahem, I mean I humbly accept this award and the tacky $2 shop plastic statue that comes with it. I would say that as a country with a very low religious population (I believe religion as a whole is now in the minority here) the further away from religion we move the more often we top the charts for happiness, prosperity and freedom. Coincidence?
America is still held back by money sucking preachers, by science deniers, by religious inspired conspiracy theories (YEC and flat earth being the two that jump to mind), by religious bigotry and anti-education teaching. The religious have a strong foot in the government and the number of court cases around religious liberty, evolution verse creation and education as a whole are scary in the attempt to control. We did send you Ray Comfort and we have apologised for that, but he does seem to fit in better over there, he really couldn't find an audience for his crap down here.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 15, 2021 15:32:52 GMT
"In 2019, the freest countries/regions were New Zealand (8.88)" Kiwi! Kiwi! Kiwi! Ahem, I mean I humbly accept this award and the tacky $2 shop plastic statue that comes with it. I would say that as a country with a very low religious population (I believe religion as a whole is now in the minority here) the further away from religion we move the more often we top the charts for happiness, prosperity and freedom. Coincidence? America is still held back by money sucking preachers, by science deniers, by religious inspired conspiracy theories (YEC and flat earth being the two that jump to mind), by religious bigotry and anti-education teaching. The religious have a strong foot in the government and the number of court cases around religious liberty, evolution verse creation and education as a whole are scary in the attempt to control. We did send you Ray Comfort and we have apologised for that, but he does seem to fit in better over there, he really couldn't find an audience for his crap down here. I'm interested in what happened in places like New Zealand. I haven't looked closely, but I'm assuming that New Zealand was once right wing and religious. And then went through some political changes brought you to the center left and right, and the minority religious status that you're experiencing now. As in there was a process of change to analyze. Is this assumption correct?
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Wertbag
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Post by Wertbag on Jan 16, 2021 1:58:45 GMT
New Zealand was primarily settlers from the UK and back in the 1800's everyone and their dog was religious. An equal mix of Catholic and Church of England, but without any of the violence that had plagued Europe previously. I think early on one major difference was isolation. It was around a 6 week journey back to England by sailing ship, 3 months if you expected to do a round trip. There was no rapid communication with the rest of the world, and you had to be very self sufficient as help could only come from your equally struggling neighbors. That didn't leave a lot of money to pay for churches, priests or anyone who wasn't working a laborious job. The primary industries were farming, forestry, whaling and mining, hard jobs for hard folks. The type of folks who don't have time for nonsense. If a priest passed away or stepped down, it could be a year or more before you could find someone to replace them.
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Post by logicalfallacy on Jan 16, 2021 8:37:18 GMT
Also relevant.
The problem of defining something as "greatest" is by what metric are you measuring it?
Greatest military? Undoubtedly Greatest economy? Possibly, but the trillions of dollars of debt, both public and private doesn't look 'great'. Greatest freedoms? I would argue it depends. Here in NZ we have freedoms the US doesn't have. (For example I don't think you can be fined/arrested for jay walking in NZ) Greatest democracy? Bawhahaha phhfffgt hic... excuse me I just busted a nut laughing.
The US has the greatest number of creationists in the western world. It has the greatest number of religious people full stop in the western world. It has the greatest number of nutcase conspiracy hacks... probably in the world. (There is data that confirms for the western world.) It also has the greatest disparity between the mega rich and the super poor.
So, once again, what metric are we measuring greatness by? And how to weigh these metrics? Does super economy weigh so heavily that everything else is irrelevant. The GOP seems to think so.
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Post by logicalfallacy on Jan 16, 2021 8:59:30 GMT
We did send you Ray Comfort and we have apologised for that, but he does seem to fit in better over there, he really couldn't find an audience for his crap down here. And Australia sent them Ken Ham. Both creationist reality deniers.
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Post by taba on Jan 16, 2021 12:16:54 GMT
I would say the US has the greatest spirit of innovation in the world. And whatever else it is that continues to draw people from all over the world in a way that no other country does. No offense to disillusioned but it would have been easier for me to immigrate to Canada than it was for me to get into the US but I held out for the possibility of coming to the States. It’s hard to explain why, but I’m not alone. A country like Canada has a lot of appeal and clearly has a greater sense of social cohesion and consensus than the US does, as well as the social safety net that has a lot to recommend it. Failure is no fun, but I think that there is something to the idea that part of the appeal of the USA is that it allows greater potential to fail as well as greater potential to succeed. In some ways, those are hard to separate. And yes that definitely has its down-side and its risks. There are still elements of the Wild West in this country, for better and for worse. Craziness and Excitement are two sides of the same coin. Canada seems to me like a decaffeinated version of the US. For many people, that is preferable. But I do think the fact that the US produces more innovation in so many areas - musical, scientific, medical - has something to do with this in a way I can’t fully articulate. And just as a side note, logicalfallacy: over and over again I’ve noticed here and elsewhere that you seem to take special pleasure in criticizing the US. Nothing wrong with criticism, but it’s the pleasure you seem to take in it that bothers me somewhat. But to each his own.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 16, 2021 15:24:24 GMT
One of the most glaring questions, when this comes up, is why are people trying to immigrate here??? Why is immigration even an issue if the US is as undesirable as some people allege and less preferred over other nations who may rank higher in freedom in some of these areas?
TABA has some first-hand experience answering those questions. I live in Florida where there have always been immigrants flooding in from various locations and tons of world travelers visiting. Not to mention more than a fair share of Canadians every winter, some of whom tell me about how much they dislike Canada and some others who talk about how much they think Canada is better. I've heard complaints about the Canadian health care system from Canada's wintering here, for instance. And some others like to complain about the US.
I don't know if I agree with LF's video clip or not.
It seems to be advancing Trump's argument that America was great previous to Obama, and that he wanted to make America great again. I don't know how else to interpret a clip that alleges that America used to be great as it's premise? That's Trump's belief. And I'm not sure how correct it is. Either from Trump or the guy in the video clip.
Being born and raised here, folks, is not very different than being born and raised into christianity. Either way we're indoctrinated from birth with religious and national indoctrination. That's just how it works. Often jointly, as we pray and recite the national anthem. American's are raised on the claim that we're the greatest country on earth. And christians are raised on the claim that only christianity is true - even to the extent that many protestants go further and claim that only their denomination is true. So we grow up in this extremely narcissistic environment where we are led to believe that we are among the, "Greatest of the absolute Great."
And it's all arguable. All of it. The religion and the nationalism.
But arguable or not, like TABA, I prefer the US and don't have a sense of wanting to move to Canada, or down to New Zealand. Even though both places have cool attractions. I will side with national interests, like the premise of our own country coming first before dealing with others. But I don't side nationally under a delusion that we are something that we may or may not be. That's actually besides the point, in my opinion. Whether we are or we are not what people boast and brag, my interests still align more in the nationalist sense than a globalist sense. Or better put, nationalist first and globalist second. Because I realize we are not an Island isolated unto ourselves.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 16, 2021 18:15:26 GMT
Also relevant. The problem of defining something as "greatest" is by what metric are you measuring it? Greatest military? Undoubtedly Greatest economy? Possibly, but the trillions of dollars of debt, both public and private doesn't look 'great'. Greatest freedoms? I would argue it depends. Here in NZ we have freedoms the US doesn't have. (For example I don't think you can be fined/arrested for jay walking in NZ) Greatest democracy? Bawhahaha phhfffgt hic... excuse me I just busted a nut laughing. The US has the greatest number of creationists in the western world. It has the greatest number of religious people full stop in the western world. It has the greatest number of nutcase conspiracy hacks... probably in the world. (There is data that confirms for the western world.) It also has the greatest disparity between the mega rich and the super poor. So, once again, what metric are we measuring greatness by? And how to weigh these metrics? Does super economy weigh so heavily that everything else is irrelevant. The GOP seems to think so. America has freedoms, some of which have been sidestepped or are irrelevant, imo. There are so many laws and rules that we have to follow as Americans, it rather overshadows the Bill of Rights. Perhaps when people are raised with the idea that they are free to do whatever the hell they want, this spawns more laws that curbs moronic behavior.
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Wertbag
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Post by Wertbag on Jan 16, 2021 18:28:01 GMT
Internationally the US is seen as a very lawsuit heavy country (right or wrong). We often hear about frivolous lawsuits because they make amusing news stories: www.thebalancesmb.com/most-ridiculous-lawsuits-of-all-time-4110919It is worth noting that almost all of these types of cases are thrown out but often due to the high cost of defending against such things it can still hurt the innocent. The latest I heard was a guy who sued Twitch for having sexy girl gamers which caused his sex addiction to result in him injuring himself: www.mirror.co.uk/tech/man-sues-twitch-showing-many-22269094.ampAgain it was thrown out but at a waste of court time and Twitch needed to have their legal team invest time and money to counter. You hear of ambulance chasers and small businesses put out of business, but I'm guessing these activities are actually very rare? How much of a threat are lawsuits really?
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 16, 2021 18:35:59 GMT
But arguable or not, like TABA, I prefer the US and don't have a sense of wanting to move to Canada, or down to New Zealand. Even though both places have cool attractions. I will side with national interests, like the premise of our own country coming first before dealing with others. But I don't side nationally under a delusion that we are something that we may or may not be. That's actually besides the point, in my opinion. Where we are or we are not what people boast and brag, my interests still align more in the nationalist sense than a globalist sense. Or better put, nationalist first and globalist second. Because I realize we are not an Island isolated unto ourselves. Like I said before, I've had a pretty damn good life in the USA. Always had food, shelter, clothing and high speed internet (since the late 90s anyway). I was instilled (indoctrinated) with a tiny bit of patriotism after an enlistment in the military that has stayed with me, so I'm somewhat partial to the USA. America has problems like other countries have problems and we have found ways to screw with each other outside of the confines of the Constitution. But I generally dont have many serious complaints. I think Canada would be a good place to live. New Zealand as well and most of Europe and UK.
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