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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 8, 2019 19:23:57 GMT
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Post by yeshuapantera on Mar 9, 2019 15:24:09 GMT
Very interesting perspectives in the article. I think that there's a good number of people coming out of christianity and religion who are not satisfied with the dogmatic oriented alternatives to religion. And don't care for the "stick in the mud," attitude of a lot of atheists. While not to do with magick in particular, taba and I have discussed a lot to do with alternatives to christianity after leaving the fold. Neither of us finding any ground breaking answers, but continuing to look into and discuss them. I for one stand in defense of your choice of magick oriented ex christian spiritual expression. I've seen atheists try and gang up on you about it and I largely disagree with a lot of the directions they have taken while trying to do so. Coming out of christianity it's understandable to look back at the bible as a "magic" book of fairy tales and make believe. God basically speaking an incantation spell, "let there be..." throughout the creation myth. But that general line of thought comes from associating the bible with fictional magic (like Harry Potter, for instance), more so than an in depth understanding of "magick" as described in the article. A good reference for those interested in the distinction is of course Dean Radin PhD, and his recent book, "Real Magic." These distinctions and misunderstandings are outlined very well: ex-christian.freeforums.net/thread/12/dean-radin-phd-modern-enceExpanding on the article, I'd say that open minded agnostic atheist types are not limited to try and experiment with alternative spiritual oriented experiences like described here. One way would be to take a "stick in the mud" approach. Another way would be to remain open and agnostic about consciousness in and of the universe. In fact, I wonder if this could be taken even further to the point where the term, "Magick" is not even used? Due to it's associations with so much misconception. That may take some consideration, but I can see how it could be possible. One reason is because I now realize that "The Secret" genre was taken very obviously from the magick practices referred to in the article. But it spread like wild fire without any mention whatsoever of the term magick. Or any allusions to the early 19th century pioneers of that genre who very obviously obtained their knowledge and techniques from esoteric traditions. It was simply presented as positive thinking, self help oriented "Secrets" to changing one's life around. Then religionist's tried grabbing it and coming up with their own, "Secret" genre based on usurping it and conforming to the bible and christian ideology. Meanwhile, it was merely occult and esoteric knowledge the entire time. One might argue that the occult and esoteric knowledge informing the 19th and 20th centuries copied from christianity and the bible. But I'd counter argue back even further and show how both judaism and christianity were informed by even older esosteric and mystery school mythology and symbolism. It's funny how this has all gone around and around, back and forth, and side to side over the millennia.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 9, 2019 17:24:39 GMT
Very interesting perspectives in the article. I think that there's a good number of people coming out of christianity and religion who are not satisfied with the dogmatic oriented alternatives to religion. And don't care for the "stick in the mud," attitude of a lot of atheists. While not to do with magick in particular, taba and I have discussed a lot to do with alternatives to christianity after leaving the fold. Neither of us finding any ground breaking answers, but continuing to look into and discuss them. Well, I know the article author calls atheists sticks in the mud but the hard atheists just put value and preference in a certain place whereas I put them in another place. It truly is comforting for an atheist to help someone deconvert by letting the faith questioner know that it's probably not the Holy Spirit moving through them, but maybe just a neurotransmitter chemical. But when it comes to looking for something 'spiritual' or mind-bending then I'd rather consider my altered state to be 'something more' than just a set of neurons firing. The author cautions against 'belief', but for me belief is fleeting anyway. (Thank you ADHD - lol) I for one stand in defense of your choice of magick oriented ex christian spiritual expression. I've seen atheists try and gang up on you about it and I largely disagree with a lot of the directions they have taken while trying to do so. Coming out of christianity it's understandable to look back at the bible as a "magic" book of fairy tales and make believe. God basically speaking an incantation spell, "let there be..." throughout the creation myth. But that general line of thought comes from associating the bible with fictional magic (like Harry Potter, for instance), more so than an in depth understanding of "magick" as described in the article. Suppressing any form of woo is probably helpful for those who were severely infected with the Jesus virus. My case was much milder. Yes, as a deconversion tool , it is helpful to see that Jesus' supposed miracles are by definition, magic. Christians wont' acknowledge that; it's not magic, it's a miracle! Something I find interesting is when a stick in the mud is confronted with evidence of something that seems to defy logic or defy newtonian law and poke at their comfy concept of reality.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads, right? Even if it leads to thoughts collapsing wave-functions, or quantum entanglement, double slit experiments and quantum eraser experiments leaving you with the feeling that the universe might be observing you, not just you observing it.
I'll comment on the rest of your post in a bit...I hope.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 14, 2021 16:06:25 GMT
This is certainly an area we can continue exploring for sure. I think the idea here is that human's have spiritual tendencies and there are more or less harmless outlets to engage those natural human tendencies. Like the neo-pagan and magick areas of spiritual thinking. It's really one of those take it or leave it situations. If it doesn't appeal to someone, so be it. If it does, so be that.
Unlike dogmatic religion where it's "believe this or else!!!!"
This kind of stuff is experimental and for fun.
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Post by logicalfallacy on Jan 16, 2021 9:59:41 GMT
I think you both know my position generally on magic. It might be helpful to define it, because if you define it in such a way that you meditate and feel better and that's magic, I would agree that meditation has an effect, but I don't think you need to introduce the term magic, but if you want to use it well ok.
If magic is something like what we commonly think of magic (e.g. you can move objects with your mind, use various signs and spells etc) then I be like evidence please. There is a new form of what I lump into the magic category - crystal healing stones that when you hear what they can do its basically magic. People report feeling better when wearing the crystals than without. So we have empirical evidence of this effect correct? No. There is no correlation between wearing a rock, and having a psychological effect. However we do know that if people believe something brings them some benefit then they will feel better. This psychological phenomena is known as the placebo effect. It's so powerful that when doing medical experiments researchers have to factor it into their research in order to determine if the effect they are measuring is real, or simply placebo.
This is a problem with current explorations around magic. If you are inclined to believe magic actually works, then unsurprisingly magic seems to work for you. But when anyone tries to replicate or test it they cannot. This reminds me of God belief. God heals, and makes things happen in your life etc if you believe that God heals and makes stuff happen. But do prayers (magical incantations) actually work? Studies show that they don't.
Now you might think I'm a stick in the mud, much like flat earthers will say 'globers' haven't had their mind open, when in reality I'm just looking at the evidence and so far, like all supernatural claims I've investigated, it's come up short. I'm not close minded though. It's be great if magic was actually a thing, but it thus far doesn't appear to be for me.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 17, 2021 4:21:58 GMT
Dean Radin's book, "Real Magic," set forward the distinction between fictional magic, like Harry Potter, and what he calls real magic, which is basically mind stuff and synchronicity. The only way to try and test this stuff, is to dive in and try it. Not the fictional magic. The consciousness and synchronicity stuff. Maybe you could do a trial of some type if you're interested in trying to see what the mind can do. You know that the placebo effect is mind oriented. So how far can people push that same type of effect? That's where synchronicity and the rest can factor in: www.amazon.com/Synchronicity-Coincidence-Choice-Unlocking-Your/dp/1601631839
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 17, 2021 5:06:52 GMT
Maybe I'll start doing some sigil magic again. I have a new pot stash which works well to put the psychic censor to sleep. Or just skip the magic and smoke the pot. Or watch Cosmos and smoke pot.
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Wertbag
New Member
Posts: 14
Current Belief System: Atheist
Gender: Male
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Post by Wertbag on Jan 17, 2021 19:06:07 GMT
My problem with woo is not with people who want to experiment and have new experiences, that's all good. The problem is the woo industry, the commercialisation of the ideas and people out to make a buck. You start getting ideas that are widely accepted not because they have any detectable benefit (I'm looking at you crystals) but because the claims have been repeated so much that people start believing on word of mouth. You then have the insidious side, where people with medical conditions fail to seek the help they need, instead relying on an alternative medicine that simply don't work. People have died for failing to let a doctor see to a curable illness.
I do worry when I hear about people talking about magic, or dabbling with alternatives, as confirmation bias can lead people to link any good event to the woo while ignoring anything bad that happens. They self convince that they feel better (placebo) and then report that success to family and friends. It is really hard to be objective about such things, especially when the effects claimed are often vague such as improved mood, better energy, more empathy or good luck.
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