Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 14, 2021 4:08:05 GMT
Many of us have contemplated god to the point where it finally boils down to some very glaring conclusions. Which end with us coming to peace with it all. And not living in fear of 'what if' christianity is true, 'what if' hell really does exist, 'what if' I'm wrong, etc., etc.
Encouraging and helping struggling ex christians is WHY we're here!!! So I've tried to condense years of experience of thinking about and debating around the issue of the existence of god into a pretty concise presentation going from step to step:
1) No one can prove god exists. It's not possible. If they claim they can prove it, you can challenge them to make good on the claim and they will always fail. No one else HAS to prove god 'doesn't exist.' It's not up to anyone to prove that something 'doesn't exist.' God, santa, the easter bunny, or anything similar. It's up to the people who claim that things DO exist to 'prove the claim.'
2) That leaves us with an agnostic (not knowing) conclusion about the existence of god. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. As to knowledge, we can understand clearly that we do not have conclusive knowledge that a god does exist, and that it's out of range to obtain that sort of conclusive knowledge.
3) Now it comes down to belief. What do we believe about the existence of god? We understand at this point that it's beyond knowing with certainty. Do we believe in god anyways, even though we can never know for sure? Some people take that position. It's called, "agnostic theism." They are honest with themselves and others and admit that they don't know absolutely that god exists, they just believe that a god exist's anyways, despite not having the certainty behind the belief. And it's their right to believe as they will, without the evidence.
But the other option is, "agnostic atheism." This is where many of us tend to arrive.
We understand that it's beyond proving. We realize that we can't know for sure with certainty. And we're ok with that. But based on the available evidences that do exist showing how people created gods, mythology, and religion, and the lack of evidence supporting the claims of gods existence (the years of research and learning part), we are 'very comfortable disbelieving' the claims of gods existence. We are good with the decision. We feel that it's 'well researched' and gels best considering all of the evidences on the table. We don't know if any gods exist, but we don't believe that they do exist. Because we've seen no good reason to believe that gods exist going on the arguments and evidences.
4) Let's assume for a minute that maybe a god does exist??? Is this something that we find worthy of praising, bowing, or cowering down to? Mostly, the answer by this level of consideration is a strong no! If there were a god, all of the horrible things that go on in the world are not flattering towards this god. A god who knows the future, allows everything that happens, knowing full well in advance every bad thing that will happen. At some point, after all of this consideration (which can go on for years and years), a lot of us have a "fuck you" attitude towards the possibility that an omni-god does exist. It's a narcissistic type of god that we wouldn't care too much about anyways.
And by the end of this line of consideration we are not shaky, or wavering in our decision to leave christianity, or doubtful about our lack of belief in god. There's no sense of, "what if." All of the "what if's" have been considered and we're no longer confused or moved by questioning our choices. I'm so far past believing in god right now that I couldn't return to believing even if I wanted to. It's completely settled in my mind.
The only god that I can even imagine at this point is a pantheistic and naturalistic idea of god, where god is everything in the universe and the whole of existence itself. So god is you, me and everything else in existence. And that kind of concept of god makes no difference whatsoever about whether or not I believe in the mythological and religious theistic claims and concepts of gods. It wouldn't matter one bit if I believed or didn't believe. It would just be what it is, regardless of any belief or disbelief. This idea of something "omnipresent," is the idea of a unified whole.
Man made mythological concepts like "hell," don't even factor in to any of it.
Well, in any case, there's some information to try and take in and digest. I don't know if you can look at that and catch on right away or not?
Kudo's to you if you can!
Encouraging and helping struggling ex christians is WHY we're here!!! So I've tried to condense years of experience of thinking about and debating around the issue of the existence of god into a pretty concise presentation going from step to step:
1) No one can prove god exists. It's not possible. If they claim they can prove it, you can challenge them to make good on the claim and they will always fail. No one else HAS to prove god 'doesn't exist.' It's not up to anyone to prove that something 'doesn't exist.' God, santa, the easter bunny, or anything similar. It's up to the people who claim that things DO exist to 'prove the claim.'
2) That leaves us with an agnostic (not knowing) conclusion about the existence of god. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. As to knowledge, we can understand clearly that we do not have conclusive knowledge that a god does exist, and that it's out of range to obtain that sort of conclusive knowledge.
3) Now it comes down to belief. What do we believe about the existence of god? We understand at this point that it's beyond knowing with certainty. Do we believe in god anyways, even though we can never know for sure? Some people take that position. It's called, "agnostic theism." They are honest with themselves and others and admit that they don't know absolutely that god exists, they just believe that a god exist's anyways, despite not having the certainty behind the belief. And it's their right to believe as they will, without the evidence.
But the other option is, "agnostic atheism." This is where many of us tend to arrive.
We understand that it's beyond proving. We realize that we can't know for sure with certainty. And we're ok with that. But based on the available evidences that do exist showing how people created gods, mythology, and religion, and the lack of evidence supporting the claims of gods existence (the years of research and learning part), we are 'very comfortable disbelieving' the claims of gods existence. We are good with the decision. We feel that it's 'well researched' and gels best considering all of the evidences on the table. We don't know if any gods exist, but we don't believe that they do exist. Because we've seen no good reason to believe that gods exist going on the arguments and evidences.
4) Let's assume for a minute that maybe a god does exist??? Is this something that we find worthy of praising, bowing, or cowering down to? Mostly, the answer by this level of consideration is a strong no! If there were a god, all of the horrible things that go on in the world are not flattering towards this god. A god who knows the future, allows everything that happens, knowing full well in advance every bad thing that will happen. At some point, after all of this consideration (which can go on for years and years), a lot of us have a "fuck you" attitude towards the possibility that an omni-god does exist. It's a narcissistic type of god that we wouldn't care too much about anyways.
And by the end of this line of consideration we are not shaky, or wavering in our decision to leave christianity, or doubtful about our lack of belief in god. There's no sense of, "what if." All of the "what if's" have been considered and we're no longer confused or moved by questioning our choices. I'm so far past believing in god right now that I couldn't return to believing even if I wanted to. It's completely settled in my mind.
The only god that I can even imagine at this point is a pantheistic and naturalistic idea of god, where god is everything in the universe and the whole of existence itself. So god is you, me and everything else in existence. And that kind of concept of god makes no difference whatsoever about whether or not I believe in the mythological and religious theistic claims and concepts of gods. It wouldn't matter one bit if I believed or didn't believe. It would just be what it is, regardless of any belief or disbelief. This idea of something "omnipresent," is the idea of a unified whole.
Man made mythological concepts like "hell," don't even factor in to any of it.
Well, in any case, there's some information to try and take in and digest. I don't know if you can look at that and catch on right away or not?
Kudo's to you if you can!