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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 10, 2021 19:26:00 GMT
This seems like the most glaring political discussion to have at the moment.
There was a lot of skepticism about mail-in voting and the possibility for fraud from a long time back. Jimmy Carter expressed concerns. Various democrats have expressed concerns about the integrity of mail-in voting in the past. But going into this election a big push towards mail-in voting began to arise. Republican's against it and Democrats being for it. Then the pandemic hit. Solidifying the mail-in voting debating further. State legislatures were bi-passed in many cases and the voting parted ways with state and federal constitutions by way of governors and state officials who didn't have the authority to make those changes.
From what I can tell, there was a lot of skepticism going into this election about the potential for fraud.
So I haven't found it surprising that fraud allegations were raised immediately. I'm not happy at all about the fact that these allegations were not thoroughly played out in courts and all of the evidences examined. Even if the result were merely to put to rest the allegations of fraud by allowing them to play out through the court systems. By blocking the cases from being played out in the courts it looks like some 74,000,000 americans (or more) are left feeling like fraud was committed and then covered up. And not having allowed these cases to play out fully has broken many people's belief in the integrity of our election and democratic system, in my opinion.
I think the entire situation has been handled about as poorly as it could have been handled. All of the fall out now from Big Tech censoring social media platforms not withstanding.
So what do you all think about it???
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 11, 2021 20:37:40 GMT
Maybe the cases presented by Juliani, et al, could have included an actual complaint of fraud. From what I saw the law suits did not actually allege anything because the lawyers didnt want to violate Rule 11 or whatever it was that would indicate a frivolous suit that could lead to them being disbarred.
I watched the Pennsylvania congress people in their objection speeches on Jan 6 talk about how the governor had no right to bypass legislature...I agree that rule of law was bypassed. Is that an automatic indicator of fraud? I dont think so. Would people have voted differently if the voting method had been blessed by the legislature? Probably not. Were there extraordinary circumstance in play? Yes, a pandemic. Did PA lawmakers have sufficient time to change the law to legalize mail-in voting? I'm not sure. I would think yes.
Is mail-in voting fraught with massive fraud? If it is, I'd like to see the evidence. If voting machines are hackable, perhaps they were hacked in 2016 when Trump won the election. But I seriously doubt it. Not then, not now.
I'm not sure why Trump was vehemently against mail-in voting when a lot of of his supporters are grumpy old men above 45 years either stuck at home during the pandemic or retired home-bodies.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 12, 2021 2:04:22 GMT
I've watched a lot of the claims presented. I don't believe the apologetic's from left wing media about the security cam footage in Georgia not being evidence of them getting rid of everyone and pulling out rigged ballots from under the blanketed table. I've seen the footage elsewhere of people yelling and screaming as GOP observes were ushered out of the building. Statistical issues with massive vote spikes in the middle of the night. Drivers who drove ballets across state lines admitting as much. Witnesses seeing people feed ballots in and out of machine counting multiple votes.
Yes, there were technicalities involved in trying to get these evidences through the courts.
But the motive to rally to make sure that Trump would not be re-elected had the financial backing of Big Tech. The Chinese had interests. I'm extremely skeptical of these glaring motivations.
I do hope that going forward there will be major crackdowns on breaking state and federal voter laws. Because no matter who's doing it, the result isn't good. One thing that concerns me is that the GOP will have to develop a way of fighting back, which, will probably entail trying to figure out how to out cheat the cheaters. Until the democratic system is thoroughly dissolved and everyone disenfranchised by frauds and cheaters trying out fraud and out cheat one another.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 12, 2021 3:24:23 GMT
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Post by logicalfallacy on Jan 12, 2021 9:52:52 GMT
I see people who broke into the Capitol are on no fly lists, and aren't happy about it. What did they think was going to happen? Was it an attempt at a coup or was it a bunch of morons with mob mentality not considering consequences?
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 12, 2021 13:14:35 GMT
I see people who broke into the Capitol are on no fly lists, and aren't happy about it. What did they think was going to happen? Was it an attempt at a coup or was it a bunch of morons with mob mentality not considering consequences? There never was any attempt at a coup. Looks moronic to me. If it was serious they literally could have gone in and machine gunned the entire house and senate. Instead it was people taking selfies and screwing around. DC was burning and on fire with riots over the summer. But no one burned the capitol building down. It could have gone in a bad direction considering the fact that they were let in so easily. If the idea was to simply cause a scene and make the Trump rally look bad, the antifa guys accomplished it. They're bandwagons. That's what they do. They've been bandwagoning BLM protests all along. To where the people who were just trying to have legal protests for BLM were 'usurped by the anarchists' using the legal protest towards their own aims. This has been happening over and over again. The anarchist's saw an opportunity to do the same with the Trump rally.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 12, 2021 17:18:42 GMT
I see people who broke into the Capitol are on no fly lists, and aren't happy about it. What did they think was going to happen? Was it an attempt at a coup or was it a bunch of morons with mob mentality not considering consequences? Coup, not necessarily, though that one guy who had the zip ties was apparently ready to take someone into custody, which if it was a government official , is indeed a coup , according the definition of the word. It definitely was a violent uprising against the government, which is the definition of insurrection. I like to call it the Selfie Insurrection. As you say, it was a group of idiots with no plan, fueled by rage.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 12, 2021 17:39:11 GMT
I see people who broke into the Capitol are on no fly lists, and aren't happy about it. What did they think was going to happen? Was it an attempt at a coup or was it a bunch of morons with mob mentality not considering consequences? Coup, not necessarily, though that one guy who had the zip ties was apparently ready to take someone into custody, which if it was a government official , is indeed a coup , according the definition of the word. It definitely was a violent uprising against the government, which is the definition of insurrection. I like to call it the Selfie Insurrection. As you say, it was a group of idiots with no plan, fueled by rage. Hahahahaha!!! "The selfie Insurrection." I love it!
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 12, 2021 18:18:43 GMT
I don't know where to put this note so I'll put it here. Politics is an emotionally heated topic and I feel my blood pressure rise when I'm banging on the keys cuz Yeshua is WRONG WRONG WRONNNNNNG. (just kidding) But now we have LF and my blood pressure has gone down...(cuz he's on my side, lol).... So, the more people we get and the more diverse we are, the better the politics forum will be. Yeshua is already aware of that, I think. How we get more people , I dont know. I dont want to irritate WebMDave just to rob his website of people so we can talk politics. Thanks, though to Yeshua for giving this place a little CPR and the rest of you for coming over to visit.
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Post by disillusioned on Jan 13, 2021 0:38:38 GMT
I see people who broke into the Capitol are on no fly lists, and aren't happy about it. What did they think was going to happen? Was it an attempt at a coup or was it a bunch of morons with mob mentality not considering consequences? This has been an attempted coup for a while. The violence the other day was just the latest in a series of incidents. For example, everyone seems to have forgotten about the phone call to the Georgia secretary of state. The call where Trump specifically directed him to find the precise number of votes required to overturn the election. That's not normal due process. That's not just challenging alleged fraud (which, incidentally, the actual court cases weren't even actually trying to do). It's patently obvious to anyone watching from the outside that this is a disaster. If it was happening anywhere but the US, no one would be mincing words. It's an attempted coup. A badly organized, so far failed, attempted coup. This is what happens when you elect a moron like Trump. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 13, 2021 1:30:48 GMT
I just don't think that it is a coup. It's way off the mark and if it were serious, he could declare martial law and invoke the military and do all sorts of things. Some have been calling for him to do that. Declare martial law and run a second election. But I doubt it will happen. They thought Pence would toss out the certification of the contested states, he didn't. Trump has conceded as much as he's going to concede. He said he's leaving office. I think that's it.
And I highly doubt the GOP will ever try and run him again. They'll probably get an establishment guy in there to run next time. All speculation of course.
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Post by disillusioned on Jan 13, 2021 1:35:09 GMT
I just don't think that it is a coup. It's way off the mark and if it were serious, he could declare martial law and invoke the military and do all sorts of things. Some have been calling for him to do that. Declare martial law and run a second election. But I doubt it will happen. They thought Pence would toss out the certification of the contested states, he didn't. Trump has conceded as much as he's going to concede. He said he's leaving office. I think that's it. And I highly doubt the GOP will ever try and run him again. They'll probably get an establishment guy in there to run next time. All speculation of course. Speculate all you like, but he literally couldn't declare martial law, invoke the military, etcetera. He doesn't have the support. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/us-military-biden-trump-capitol-riot-jcs-b1786319.html
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Post by yeshuapantera on Jan 13, 2021 3:21:54 GMT
I just don't think that it is a coup. It's way off the mark and if it were serious, he could declare martial law and invoke the military and do all sorts of things. Some have been calling for him to do that. Declare martial law and run a second election. But I doubt it will happen. They thought Pence would toss out the certification of the contested states, he didn't. Trump has conceded as much as he's going to concede. He said he's leaving office. I think that's it. And I highly doubt the GOP will ever try and run him again. They'll probably get an establishment guy in there to run next time. All speculation of course. Speculate all you like, but he literally couldn't declare martial law, invoke the military, etcetera. He doesn't have the support. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/us-military-biden-trump-capitol-riot-jcs-b1786319.htmlHe's currently in charge of the military as the standing president, but that's neither here nor there. They could ignore his orders if they choose and their statement leans that way. But that's another reason as to how and why this has never been a coup. The military would not support it if we go by the official statement. Hence, another reason that there's no coup. The anarchist's could have killed the entire house and senate, but did not. The "Selfie Insurrection" amounted to little more than that. A publicity stunt performed by people acting independently on their own. Not under direction of Trump, who, publicly denounced the violence. It's a matter of record. The republicans immediately denounce the violence. And have stayed consistent on their law and order policy platform. I've been watching the live house meeting tonight. Over and over again republicans are reading the literal transcript of Trumps speech, where he spoke of peaceful and patriotic protest of voices heard. Objectively, as a matter of record. Meanwhile, democrats one after the next have stood up and claimed that he incited violence, when, there's zero evidence of him doing that in 'the transcripted speech.' It's recorded. He didn't incite violence. He only spoke of peaceful protest, that's it. It's intellectually dishonest to stand there and claim that someone did or said something when it's a matter of record that they did not do or say it. It doesn't matter who it is. Just imagine someone rallying up a group mob against you or I because we're ex christians, and claimed, with no evidence, that we incited violence against christianity. Just because we invited people to debate the bible, or protest the bible as true, peacefully by our request. And perhaps some minority within that group of people went further than that and roughed up some christians on their own without our written or spoken direction to do so. And against the fact that we asked the debate or protest to be done peacefully. It wouldn't be correct or appropriate to come after us as the inciters of an independent act of violence. Would it?
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 13, 2021 6:09:35 GMT
"We're gonna fight like hell and if you dont fight like hell you're not gonna have a country anymore."
Intelligent people may take this speech with a grain of salt. Window lickers with face paint and horns may take it as a call to arms to go kick ass
....
Perhaps it would be unfair to say us ex-Cs fired up a group of window lickers to go harm church members somewhere just because we talk shit about Christianity all the time on a web forum. On the other hand if I was the POTUS and I suggested on network tv, news outlets and twitter, to the people of America that Christians were Satan's spawn for 4 years (like I've been told Democrats (me, my wife) are), gained a large following and .... etc etc ..... then I might have some culpability. Add in the silent complicity of GOP lawmakers making it look ok.... you have quite a stew boiling in the pot.
Trump has demonized half of the US population. He has demonized some of YOUR family members, friends, associates. He's a moron, added more to the already bad division of our country and now because of all the nonsense he has pulled and all the lies he has told, natural social karma bit him hard on the ass on Nov 3rd.
I have zero sympathy for him.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Jan 13, 2021 6:26:58 GMT
I need to float the idea that if there was massive fraud by vote counters cheating (or any other method of cheating, really), then there could have been massive cheating in favor of Trump, not just Biden. And in the absence of any mainstream, replicated, reported evidence, since we live in an era of alternate facts, let me say that there was most assuredly massive vote counting fraud committed by pro-Trump vote counters. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Tens of millions of votes were counted incorrectly in favor of Trump. In reality (wink) Biden got 100 million votes while Trump got like 53 million. Wasnt even close. I just made that up. Trump does that all the time. Just makes stuff up. And his followers buy it. ........... Cheating most definitely goes both ways. If there was cheating, I guarantee both sides were doing it. If there was MASSIVE CHEATING, I guarantee both sides were doing it.
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