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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 5, 2019 4:24:31 GMT
I went as far as agnosticism , then jumped into other forms of spirituality. Atheism seemed limiting for me. Tell me how atheism sets you free?
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Post by taba on Mar 5, 2019 16:44:14 GMT
You call yourself an agnostic. I call myself an atheist. Spoiler Alert: I think there’s very little daylight between us.
Strictly speaking, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. Agnostic because I don’t KNOW there are no gods - I can’t be certain - and atheist because I don’t believe in any gods. I don’t believe in any gods in the same way I don’t believe there is intelligent life on Mars: I don’t completely rule it out but it seems very unlikely.
I think the term ‘atheist’ is most useful when it refers to a person who has thought about whether there are any gods and decided they don’t believe there are any. So I am an atheist in a way that a newborn baby is not. For a few years in my twenties I thought of myself as agnostic. I was much less sure of the existence of ‘God’ than I had been. But I hadn’t given it a lot of thought, I just didn’t go to church anymore. It was a kind of shoulder-shrugging agnosticism that didn’t rise (or sink?) to the level of my current atheism.
About five years ago, I had pretty much concluded that the God of the Bible did not exist. And I saw no real evidence for any other god either. I no longer had any god-belief. But I was not willing to call myself an atheist. Agnostic felt like a better term. Why? Because the word “atheist” had a lot of baggage for me. All my life the term was almost synonymous with evil. Atheists were enemies of God. Atheists were either immoral or amoral. But as faith faded from my mind and I read various atheist writers, I came to first accept and then embrace the label for myself.
For me, being an atheist means only one thing: I do not have a belief in any god. It doesn’t say anything about by political beliefs. It doesn’t tell you what my views are on any ‘moral’ issue. But I fully realize that the word ‘atheist’ has the same connotations for many people that it once did for me. For example if I were single and dating again, I would probably call myself an agnostic instead. I wouldn’t pretend to believe in a god when the subject came up, but would want to avoid being pre-judged. So I only call myself an atheist when I’m among other non-believers. I do look forward to when the term will not have the negative baggage that it does today, at least in the US. I think that day is definitely approaching. I hope before too long more people will call themselves atheists than call themselves Christians.
So to midniterider’s question, how does atheism set me free? Well I don’t think I’m more or less free than midniterider, who I assume also does not have any god-belief. But compared to theists, whether Christian, Muslim or whatever, I do consider myself free. Free of dogma and the requirement to conform. Free of the cognitive dissonance that afflict so many who follow a theology. Free to form my own opinions and follow my own path regarding moral issues.
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Post by taba on Mar 5, 2019 18:17:31 GMT
I should add that in my opinion, being atheistic does not rule out being spiritual or religious. Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are atheistic religions because they do not have gods. I do not consider myself either religious or spiritual. I think most who call themselves atheists are like me. But not all.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 5, 2019 18:48:04 GMT
I should add that in my opinion, being atheistic does not rule out being spiritual or religious. Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are atheistic religions because they do not have gods. I do not consider myself either religious or spiritual. I think most who call themselves atheists are like me. But not all. I think that's the freedom I'm looking for. Dawkins kind of messed up my mind (or I messed it up by taking him too seriously) in that I felt like if I called myself an atheist I would also have to also be a materialist. And I dont agree with exclusive materialism. Can an atheist also believe in sorcery? The occult? I enjoy the Eastern religions and occult stuff, ghost hunting, etc. I'm not that spiritual but like to be open to spiritual practice. I tend not to like exclusive binary choices but find it difficult to wrap my head around terms like 'atheist pagan.' Which is where my fun begins. It's fun to find the gray area of life. To be an atheist is to deny the existence of a god or gods. I think we might agree that an atheist does not believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but does an atheist also disbelieve in the divinity of the universe, divinity of everything in a non-dual sense? ... I hate this default type-font. lol. Anyway, fun discussion.
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Post by taba on Mar 5, 2019 21:19:20 GMT
I think that's the freedom I'm looking for. Dawkins kind of messed up my mind (or I messed it up by taking him too seriously) in that I felt like if I called myself an atheist I would also have to also be a materialist. And I dont agree with exclusive materialism. I'm not sure I agree with exclusive materialism myself, though maybe I don't understand it correctly. The universe is turning out to be weirder than we could have imagined. Just take quantum physics, for example. It blows my mind. Who knows how many physical dimensions exist that we can't even wrap our minds around. Can an atheist also believe in sorcery? The occult? Why not? Most of us don't, though. But that's OK. It's fun to find the gray area of life. It is, isn't it? That's one of the good things about leaving Christianity and theism: you can let your mind go where it will, explore any idea. There are no forbidden questions, no sinful thoughts. To be an atheist is to deny the existence of a god or gods. I think we might agree that an atheist does not believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit... We definitely agree there...
...but does an atheist also disbelieve in the divinity of the universe, divinity of everything in a non-dual sense? This gets trickier. Depends on what you mean by "divinity of the universe" or "divinity of everything in a non-dual sense?". Maybe divinity is in the eye of the beholder. I've often thought that maybe the closest thing there is to a god is the existence of the laws of physics. Some people might think of that as a divinity.
Yes it is a fun discussion! One of the unique things about being human is being able to explore a whole universe of ideas, to travel widely in one's own mind, or even better to bounce ideas off of another human mind. And it's much better without the blinders of theism or any religious dogma!
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Post by truescotsman on Mar 6, 2019 15:12:50 GMT
Thanks for starting this site, might swing by from time to time to generate some activity. Atheism was in my experience very freeing, though I didn't end up there immediately. I devolved from a Conservative Evangelical Calvinist to eventually a liberal Christian, even a cultural Christian who recognized that it was not likely true but helpful cultural tool for practical living and community. I eventually over time spent thinking and studying about the universe came to feel that atheism is the most likely conclusion to draw about the world. First of all, learning a great deal about history shaped my views that there is no transcendent world or intervention into this one, that naturalist explanations are sufficient to explain humanity, even the purported spiritual experiences that have occurred over history. So if these experiences are most likely created by the brain, this leads me to think that the brain is naturally emergent and that culture is also emergent and created naturally. Which leads me to think that even though there may be natural mechanisms for spiritual experience, they don't reflect the actual nature of the universe even though they might have some utility for yourself. I couldn't bring myself to again feel like I was deceiving myself, accepting a metaphysical worldview to me seemed like I was trying to assert something again without sufficient evidence. Atheism was freeing to me, because it meant that I didn't have to live with the guilt of a creator or force out there that held judgement over me, and also that I didn't have to live with any cognitive dissonance but could accept the world as it is. I think of myself more of a naturalist, which is to say that I believe the natural world is the only world, my lack of believing in god has become less important. Most people have the boring atheism of the New Atheists in mind, such as Dawkins. I find that looking at reality in this way is even more rich on the other hand, I don't take a reductionist view to reality, but that there are emergent functional structures such as the brain which are not reducible to the descriptions of basic physical interactions. I don't just view the brain and culture as illusory, but as very complex emergent things which really do exist. So as an atheist I think its possible to have a very sophisticated metaphysics without getting into transcendental claims about phenomena in the world. The totality of my view would be Naturalistic Emergent Pluralism.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 6, 2019 16:39:22 GMT
Thanks for starting this site, might swing by from time to time to generate some activity. Atheism was in my experience very freeing, though I didn't end up there immediately. I devolved from a Conservative Evangelical Calvinist to eventually a liberal Christian, even a cultural Christian who recognized that it was not likely true but helpful cultural tool for practical living and community. I eventually over time spent thinking and studying about the universe came to feel that atheism is the most likely conclusion to draw about the world. First of all, learning a great deal about history shaped my views that there is no transcendent world or intervention into this one, that naturalist explanations are sufficient to explain humanity, even the purported spiritual experiences that have occurred over history. So if these experiences are most likely created by the brain, this leads me to think that the brain is naturally emergent and that culture is also emergent and created naturally. Which leads me to think that even though there may be natural mechanisms for spiritual experience, they don't reflect the actual nature of the universe even though they might have some utility for yourself. I couldn't bring myself to again feel like I was deceiving myself, accepting a metaphysical worldview to me seemed like I was trying to assert something again without sufficient evidence. Atheism was freeing to me, because it meant that I didn't have to live with the guilt of a creator or force out there that held judgement over me, and also that I didn't have to live with any cognitive dissonance but could accept the world as it is. I think of myself more of a naturalist, which is to say that I believe the natural world is the only world, my lack of believing in god has become less important. Most people have the boring atheism of the New Atheists in mind, such as Dawkins. I find that looking at reality in this way is even more rich on the other hand, I don't take a reductionist view to reality, but that there are emergent functional structures such as the brain which are not reducible to the descriptions of basic physical interactions. I don't just view the brain and culture as illusory, but as very complex emergent things which really do exist. So as an atheist I think its possible to have a very sophisticated metaphysics without getting into transcendental claims about phenomena in the world. The totality of my view would be Naturalistic Emergent Pluralism. Thanks for dropping by, TS. For me, really any label (atheist, agnostic, pagan, weirdo) would be fine as long as I didn't try to live for my label, but just be myself. The brain is a completely amazing thing. It (or something) can create a temporary inner 3D universe while I'm sleeping. Not really having the details on how it works always leads me to a non-material-explanation-in-the-gaps idea, which of course is just as bad as God in the gaps.
There really is no difference between atheism and my own preferences, I suppose. Except for the occasional bout of theism here and there, which I suppose everyone has at times.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 6, 2019 16:48:10 GMT
TABA: One of the unique things about being human is being able to explore a whole universe of ideas, to travel widely in one's own mind, or even better to bounce ideas off of another human mind. And it's much better without the blinders of theism or any religious dogma!
I had a serious problem with the 'thought police' of fundyism. There was a lot of fundy stuff I was just unable to swallow. Any point of view outside of the fearful blinders of organized religion is freeing. I can't even imagine being born and raised under that mental mess of Christianity.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Mar 8, 2019 0:19:30 GMT
I went as far as agnosticism , then jumped into other forms of spirituality. Atheism seemed limiting for me. Tell me how atheism sets you free? What is limiting about atheism?
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 8, 2019 19:23:11 GMT
I went as far as agnosticism , then jumped into other forms of spirituality. Atheism seemed limiting for me. Tell me how atheism sets you free? What is limiting about atheism? The only thing that is limiting is my own error of conflating atheism with materialism. Which is probably just a stance by hard atheists. Non-belief in Gods (atheism) is fine for the most part. I rarely ever pray or communicate with any gods, imaginary friends, etc. Materialism is my real sticking point, though. I enjoy being able to consider possibilities that may not conform to the idea that everything is reduceable to matter. Another thought is atheism might be limiting if I tell myself I cannot believe in Gods. Maybe occasionally I want to pray, chat with, enjoy some mystical (or imaginary ) experience with a deity but 'can't' because I call myself an atheist. Though, being in charge of myself, really I can choose to believe or feel whatever I darned well please, whenever I want. Chaos magic actually suggests regularly adopting different belief systems as needed for the moment but not taking any of them seriously.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Mar 9, 2019 1:22:02 GMT
What is limiting about atheism? The only thing that is limiting is my own error of conflating atheism with materialism. Which is probably just a stance by hard atheists. Non-belief in Gods (atheism) is fine for the most part. I rarely ever pray or communicate with any gods, imaginary friends, etc. Materialism is my real sticking point, though. I enjoy being able to consider possibilities that may not conform to the idea that everything is reduceable to matter. Another thought is atheism might be limiting if I tell myself I cannot believe in Gods. Maybe occasionally I want to pray, chat with, enjoy some mystical (or imaginary ) experience with a deity but 'can't' because I call myself an atheist. Though, being in charge of myself, really I can choose to believe or feel whatever I darned well please, whenever I want. Chaos magic actually suggests regularly adopting different belief systems as needed for the moment but not taking any of them seriously. I see how you would see that as limiting. I don't pray or talk out towards beings envisioned or imagined as out there, beyond myself and the world or this universe. Whatever ultimate reality is, it's necessarily all of the universe, the world, the people, animals and myself. So I don't see atheism as a limitation in that way. But if you don't actually take any of them seriously, then atheism may not be the limitation that you take it for. Because at the end of the day you're not actually believing these things, not taking any of them seriously. You could just as well call yourself atheist, go into some mystical experience, not take any of it serious, and have no limitation in the process. You know what I think it is? It's just that your parents were atheist and you'd like to maintain thinking that you're different than them. Even if you may not be. My parents were theistic, I went atheistic. We've just flip flopped in different rebellious directions.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Mar 9, 2019 4:07:25 GMT
The only thing that is limiting is my own error of conflating atheism with materialism. Which is probably just a stance by hard atheists. Non-belief in Gods (atheism) is fine for the most part. I rarely ever pray or communicate with any gods, imaginary friends, etc. Materialism is my real sticking point, though. I enjoy being able to consider possibilities that may not conform to the idea that everything is reduceable to matter. Another thought is atheism might be limiting if I tell myself I cannot believe in Gods. Maybe occasionally I want to pray, chat with, enjoy some mystical (or imaginary ) experience with a deity but 'can't' because I call myself an atheist. Though, being in charge of myself, really I can choose to believe or feel whatever I darned well please, whenever I want. Chaos magic actually suggests regularly adopting different belief systems as needed for the moment but not taking any of them seriously. I see how you would see that as limiting. I don't pray or talk out towards beings envisioned or imagined as out there, beyond myself and the world or this universe. Whatever ultimate reality is, it's necessarily all of the universe, the world, the people, animals and myself. So I don't see atheism as a limitation in that way. But if you don't actually take any of them seriously, then atheism may not be the limitation that you take it for. Because at the end of the day you're not actually believing these things, not taking any of them seriously. You could just as well call yourself atheist, go into some mystical experience, not take any of it serious, and have no limitation in the process. You know what I think it is? It's just that your parents were atheist and you'd like to maintain thinking that you're different than them. Even if you may not be. My parents were theistic, I went atheistic. We've just flip flopped in different rebellious directions. Oh, I'm sure there's some of that "I'm not my parents" thing going on. Really, I could call myself a Christian, an atheist, or a Bhuddist, and still not give Jesus or Bhuddha or atheism any thought during the day. I call myself a magician and rarely do any magic.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Apr 10, 2019 22:48:31 GMT
I should add that in my opinion, being atheistic does not rule out being spiritual or religious. Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are atheistic religions because they do not have gods. I do not consider myself either religious or spiritual. I think most who call themselves atheists are like me. But not all. This is a good point. People don't need to believe in gods to be spiritual. Only if there idea of spiritual means believing in supernatural beings literally. If it's taken as symbolic of natural forces or the universe or something similar, there's no sense in needing to believe that the symbol is literally true. Although most spiritual people probably do believe it literally, there's always a minority who do not. Including many mystics and various esoterics who do not take any of literally. A good example was that quantum sorcery article I posted a while back: www.quantumsorcery.org/quantumsorcery.html Magick practice that takes an atheistic approach. Visualizing science as means to try and focus in one's own consciousness on the lower level fabric of existence in order to try and influence the out flow, shall we say, of reality from foundation levels up to the macrocosm. None of it involves belief in literal supernatural beings, entities, gods, devils, fairies who wear boots, or boogie men.
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Post by Midnight Rider on Apr 13, 2019 5:06:49 GMT
Is it Quantum Sorcery that brings up the idea that all matter is quantum entangled because all matter was squished into a tiny speck prior to the big bang? And if that's the case then there would be no need to 'transmit' a signal like radio waves from point A to point B to get a magical effect.
If consciousness is primary and matters arises from it, then there's not much reason to believe it's not modifiable. Or that someone else's thoughts are not modifiable. Thoughts, if not part of consciousness itself, is pretty subtle. It's here, it's gone. Seems like thoughts could be susceptible to outside influence.
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Post by yeshuapantera on Apr 15, 2019 0:18:01 GMT
Is it Quantum Sorcery that brings up the idea that all matter is quantum entangled because all matter was squished into a tiny speck prior to the big bang? And if that's the case then there would be no need to 'transmit' a signal like radio waves from point A to point B to get a magical effect. If consciousness is primary and matters arises from it, then there's not much reason to believe it's not modifiable. Or that someone else's thoughts are not modifiable. Thoughts, if not part of consciousness itself, is pretty subtle. It's here, it's gone. Seems like thoughts could be susceptible to outside influence. I've read the Quantum Sorcery article over several times. It seems to me that he's mostly just looking for ways that make sense from naturalistic perspectives. Because they can seem believable enough for the mind to accept as at least possible. Quantum Entanglement works. The mind can easily see that if everything is entangled then certain possibilities may exist. The butterfly effect. The author seems to be atheistic with a spiritual leaning towards esotericism. For someone else they could be atheist but fancy something to do with buddhist or hindu traditions as a type of mental focus. Just examples of spiritual minded atheism.
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